Joie and I had a semi-theological discussion yesterday. (Dangerous, I know, for husbands and wives!)
To understand how amazing this is, you have to know a little about our different ways of faith. Where Joie has in the past tended to be non-critical of scripture ("It says what it says, why try to read more into it?") I have been the one who insists—often wrongly—that there's some deeper meaning there if we just dig for it.
Yesterday in church Reed took us through the end of Galatians 5. His goal was to juxtapose the "works of the flesh" in verse 19 with the "fruit of the Spirit" in verse 22. So this passage, along with its two lists and this proclamation was on Joie's mind:
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
At the same time I've been reading If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person by Gullley and Mulholland. This book, even in its first chapters, speaks directly to my own innate sense of how God works. To support their bold thesis they quote a number of sources, but three stand out:
Philippians 2:9: 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jeremiah 31:34:
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.
Genesis 12:3, in God's very first conversation with Abraham: 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.
I won't try to summarize all their points, but I'll say that I've been profoundly touched by the grandeur and simplicity of their view. A wrote an unpublished article a while ago that included my own simple-minded version of this idea: "Salvation, I began to see, could only be fully realized when we all experienced it together."
So as I described this book to Joie while we were driving around for errands and ice cream she asked a really good question. "What about what Paul says in Galatians? 'I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.'"
So I have to admit I'm stumped. The message behind If Grace is True is powerfully resonant with me, and the idea that no one is left behind matches the way I've come to see my God. But Paul is pretty clear here.
Now, it's possible Paul was growing and changing as we all are. The Galatians passage, according to some timeline, was very early in his ministry, and Philippians may have been the last thing he ever wrote. Maybe he started thinking Galatians-like exclusiveness, but came to see salvation as an all-inclusive, universe-absorbing thing by the time he wrote Philippians.
I don't know. But I'm glad Joie and I are talking about it. I think it means, among other things, that we're both still growing in Christ.
[Note: Why the hawk? I don't know. It was a picture Joie captured one morning outside our living room window and we were both amazed by it. He also looks very wise to me.]
8 comments:
Being a bit of a 'literal' type gal,I guess my question would be this: We all sin and fall short of the glory of God, therefore, given that we are 'sinners', how do we reconcile with: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." with (Hebrews 4:15-16) "Jesus understands every weakness of ours, because He was tempted in every way that we are. But He did not sin. So whenever we are in need, we should come bravely before the throne of our merciful God. There we will be treated with undeserved grace, and we will find help."
Given that my husband is considerably more articulate than I, hopefully what I am looking for is not lost in too many words......
.... let me also clarify that what I believe, why I believe and how I believe can be summed up by Psalms 46:10 ~ "Be still, and know that I am God".
I believe, simply and faithfully.
Which is one of the reasons I love her: she's always shown simple and steadfast faith. For me, on the other hand, "faith" and "simple" never seem to go together well.
She also makes the world's best peanut butter cookies.
I can't vouch for the peanut butter cookies, but I can talk of the difficulty of such soteriological issues. I've struggled with this issue a lot.
On the one hand, the passages you bring up, Michael, can indeed be interpreted in the manner that the authors of the book you mentioned interpret them. On the other hand, many have come up with compelling interpretations that do not end up in universalism. For example, the 'all peoples' of Genesis 12 is a shorthand way of saying that members of every nation will be included in the elect, though not every person of every nation (all peoples v. all people); the Jeremiah passage does indicate that all people will 'know' him, which fits into Paul's argument from conscience in Romans 1 (the evidence of God written on the heart and in creation so that nobody is innocent); the Philippians passage makes a claim that every knee 'should' bow but not that every knee 'will' bow. Some of these arguments are more convincing than others, of course. I think the one with the most contention around it would be the 'should' v. 'will' language in Philippians in the Greek.
I would love for all people (not just all peoples) to be saved, but I cannot get past the many passages in scripture that seem speak to many who will not. I do not reckon that God willy-nilly sends people to hell, but rather sense that he will not override our will. For him to do that and to place an unwilling person (who's knee should bow but doesn't) in heaven, would for them make it to be hell (via C.S. Lewis). That argument/understanding seems strong to me and while not letting God off the hook, does suggest that he loves us enough to allow us the dignity of response in the issues of eternity. If that dignity is truly there, I do have a hard time imagining that everyone would choose to bend their knee to Christ.
Enjoying the conversation!
What? Our pastor has never had Joie's world-famous peanut butter cookies? That sort of make this discussion moot -- it looks like heading to hell. Deservedly so!
As I was reading your comments I realized that one of my real sticking points is this: we really, really WANT to know what happens when we leave these bodies... and we really really WANT it to be reunion with God... and this "wanting" forces us to define what that "non-other-with-God" condition is. And that "wanting" sort of forces us to draw a line in the sand between these two, and perhaps even speculate on who will end up on which side.
On top of that, we can use scripture to defend almost any position, from universalism to the Jehovah's witness notion that there's only 133,000 places available in heaven (or whatever the number actually is) so you better be better than the next guy to get one.
If there's a proof-text for every position, where is the underlying truth? I believe it's truly written on our hearts, and scripture helps us decipher it...rather than the feelings in our hearts helping to decipher scripture.
Finally, I have to admit personally that I don't have and cannot have all the answers, and can't from my current perspective answer for what happens after death. Is it God's intention we all experience and participate in salvation? Scripture indicates this, our hearts feel this. Do we know how this happens? No.
But... Would I be surprised to learn that Mohamed Atta, upon encountering the full reality of Christ on the morning of September 11, did in fact bend his knee to Christ and beg for and receive forgiveness? I can't be surprised. To believe anything else would be to limit God and limit his grace. Do I worry too much about the spiritual reparation the hijacker had to make if this really did occur? Not really... beyond my ken, as the Scottish say.
So I stick to my belief that "universalism" is the end game and the goal and the plan, and any other division is invented by us to fill the great big gaps in our puny human understanding.
For the unrepentant knee that does not bow, even when encountering the full glory and beauty of Christ at the end of their days? Maybe that's what reincarnation is for... kind of like having to do second grade all over again. :-)
"I drug his name through godless places
And I’ve known shame that no child of his should know
I’ve seen pain on broken faces
Beyond all thought of hope
I was just too far from home
Still I always wondered when I closed my eyes
After all I’ve done
Could he run to me?
Would he kiss my face?
Could he even look at me?
After where I’ve been
should he take me back?
I would understand
I’ve disgraced him
But it would be amazing
If he still calls me son
With nothing left for me to bring him
I left my pride and turned my heart toward home
I saw my home on the horizon
And from a distance
I saw my Father
Watching for his own with forgiving eyes
After all I’d done
He just ran to me
Then he kissed my face
He would not let go of me
After where I’d been
He just welcomed me
I didn’t understand
But he put his robe on me
It was so amazing
That he still called me son
One day as I breathe my last
And I know my days on earth have ended
When every hour is spent
I will close my eyes in amazement
And I’ll hear angels
They’ll be singing
Amazing Grace
Cause he will run to me
And he will kiss my face
He will not let go of me
After where I’ve been
He will welcome me
I won’t understand
How he’ll put his robe on me
It will be amazing
That he’ll still call me son
Amazing grace how sweet the sound
When he calls me son
I once was lost but now I’m found
Cause he calls me Son"
I am thinking that maybe this is my answer..........
Amen!
Sometimes when I'm asked about such matters, it is asked in a personal way: "Reed, if you died today, are you sure you'd go to heaven?"
But the question (for me) isn't about me, but about God's plan and glory. That is to say, it would be selfish for me to worry about my own destination more than about God's glory. In that, I strive to be at a place where I care so much about his honor and Lordship that I would be willing to be damned if it were his will and for his glory. So the question of "where will I go when I die?" or "am I sure I will go to heaven?" seems to be the wrong question (for me). The right question (for me) is this: am I willing to submit to and honor the Lord in all things, even with regard to my eternal destiny, should it result even in damnation?
All that being said, I do find great comfort in the knowledge that God's grace is beyond what I can comprehend and his mercy is matchless (as your post suggests, Joie) as well as the testimony of the faithful who've gone before us that those 'in Christ' are saved.
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